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From: "Meaney, Paul" <Paul.Meaney@qa.com>
To: britdisc@csv.warwick.ac.uk
Subject: RE: shaftin' and other difficulties
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 11:07:34 -0000
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sam,
In all honesty that is a fantastic idea. I mean - the top 8 teams play
each other regularly and get good competition over the weekend. The two tier
idea has been proposed once or twice and you are about to get shot down with
the following arguments:
(1) you are doubling the amount of tournaments which means we need more
people getting involved, finding a venue for 16 teams and doing it. Risky.
But IMHO it's doable, as currently there are limited venues which can host
an event the size of the tour
(2) how do you handle crossovers? currently each tour there is a 5 - 12
crossover first thing sunday morning which usually holds true. Except you
get some huge upsets (like tour 4 last year where 6 teams ended up swapping
between top 8 and 9 - 16). So you would need to have both tournaments
running at the same time so that those who win can go into the 'Permier
League' and those who lose can drop into the 'Vauxhall Conference' on a per
tournament basis
(3) how do you handle nationals? do all of tier 1 qualify and top 4 or
tier 2? Or those people who have are relegated fail to qualify and those
who are promoted take their place? Or should nationals be open and available
to all as a staightforward knockout?
(4) It means that people coming through don't get to see top flight
ultimate. Which is not good as it means people don;t come away from
tournaments having had the ability to watch top teams play and learn from
them, so the rate of learning slows.
Personally Sam I agree with you - I would say you stick with a division
for a year. If you finish bottom overall in tier1- you suck and should be
relegated. If you then play well the following year, you get promoted. It's
pretty simple.It means that you can't have 'one bad game' - you've got to be
pretty crap overall and therefore why should you be in that division.
Equally - if you continually 'whup ass' in tier 2 - what are you doing
there. Come up to the premiership, get the adulation of the fans and have a
go at kicking clapham's butt (it's quite easy when you get the hang of it).
It happens with most sports that have leagues - football, basketball,
korfball- My korfball team has just finished near to bottom of the BKA
(British Korfball Association) National league division 1 and is facing
relegation to division 2, where hopefully they can regroup, refocus, examine
their weaknesses and come back a stronger team next year. Why should
ultimate be any different?
It won't happen this year - but it's certainly something worth thinking
about.
Paul - teamshark
-----Original Message-----
From: sam rey [mailto:samanir32@yahoo.com]
Sent: 22 March 2002 10:35
To: britdisc@csv.warwick.ac.uk
Subject: shaftin' and other difficulties
I have played Ultimate for a few years now. I have watched many players and
a few teams, therefore I would like to respond with views (not answers) to
some of the comments flying around. My team(s) have always come in about
half way up the seed tables and this is more to do with how they practice
and how seriously they take the game.
"The Tour was designed to be elitist, when changed to a 32 team knockout."
I was under the impression that it was to improve the 'top teams' abilities,
improve their games standard and give them a better shot at Worlds and on
the continent generally. Has this worked... I get the impression it has.
Even though I am not a part of it, I am glad for those who are, that they
have this option.
"Shortage of non-Tour events & more 'recreational' level." It's true, with
all the Official events going on there seems little space for other more fun
events, and they have to shuffle around each other in hopes of a date that
will produce enough teams to pay for itself.
"Are we losing or alienating some potential outdoor players?" It take a
significant attitude from the organisers of any team to not alienate some
players (don't get me started on this subject tho). It happens, and at
various levels.
"Students" last year, approximately a third of our students didn't play
either outdoors or during the summer. I have not asked why, but thankfully
most are back with us again this year. But a substantial number did not
pickup with any local team when they went home for summer, and this is an
unfortunate situation.
"Beginners" Our second team has many beginners and there is no option but
to enter them into the Tour as the main source of game and experience.
Now for the controversial bit. In Canada, I have heard they have a three
tier league system in place like soccer here. Obviously we don't have the
numbers, but would it be worth considering 2 smaller divisional events
rather than 1 massive tour event. More smaller venues would be available
(more towns could host locally) and both divisions could still play the same
weekends. There would be a promotional/relegation concept to the top and
bottom teams in each division. New teams/players would feel that 'deep end'
feeling and top teams still get the bonus of better/equivalent quality
weekends. It might mean that teams like mine might actually win an event
occas! ionally.
Two penneth, thanks for your time.
Sam
(Controversially, Nottingham Ultimate)
Sam
Nottingham Ultimate
07866 336643
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=310124510-22032002>sam,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=310124510-22032002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=310124510-22032002>
In all honesty that is a fantastic idea. I mean - the top 8 teams play each
other regularly and get good competition over the weekend. The two tier
idea has been proposed once or twice and you are about to get shot down with the
following arguments:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=310124510-22032002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=310124510-22032002>
(1) you are doubling the amount of tournaments which means we need more people
getting involved, finding a venue for 16 teams and doing it. Risky. But IMHO
it's doable, as currently there are limited venues which can host an event
the size of the tour</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=310124510-22032002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=310124510-22032002>
(2) how do you handle crossovers? currently each tour there is a 5 - 12
crossover first thing sunday morning which usually holds true. Except you get
some huge upsets (like tour 4 last year where 6 teams ended up swapping between
top 8 and 9 - 16). So you would need to have both tournaments running at the
same time so that those who win can go into the 'Permier League' and those who
lose can drop into the 'Vauxhall Conference' on a per tournament
basis</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=310124510-22032002></SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=310124510-22032002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=310124510-22032002>
(3) how do you handle nationals? do all of tier 1 qualify and top 4 or tier 2?
Or those people who have are relegated fail to qualify and those who are
promoted take their place? Or should nationals be open and available to all as a
staightforward knockout?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=310124510-22032002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=310124510-22032002>
(4) It means that people coming through don't get to see top flight ultimate.
Which is not good as it means people don;t come away from tournaments having had
the ability to watch top teams play and learn from them, so the rate of learning
slows. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=310124510-22032002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=310124510-22032002>
Personally Sam I agree with you - I would say you stick with a division for a
year. If you finish bottom overall in tier1- you suck and should be relegated.
If you then play well the following year, you get promoted. It's pretty
simple.It means that you can't have 'one bad game' - you've got to be pretty
crap overall and therefore why should you be in that division. Equally - if you
continually 'whup ass' in tier 2 - what are you doing there. Come up to the
premiership, get the adulation of the fans and have a go at kicking clapham's
butt (it's quite easy when you get the hang of it). It happens with most
sports that have leagues - football, basketball, korfball- My korfball
team has just finished near to bottom of the BKA (British Korfball
Association) National league division 1 and is facing relegation to
division 2, where hopefully they can regroup, refocus,
examine their weaknesses and come back a stronger team next
year. Why should ultimate be any different?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=310124510-22032002>It won't happen this
year - but it's certainly something worth thinking about.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=310124510-22032002>Paul -
teamshark</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> sam rey
[mailto:samanir32@yahoo.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> 22 March 2002 10:35<BR><B>To:</B>
britdisc@csv.warwick.ac.uk<BR><B>Subject:</B> shaftin' and other
difficulties<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I have played Ultimate
for a few years now.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I have
watched many players and a few teams, therefore I would like to respond with
views (not answers) to some of the comments flying around.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>My team(s) have always come in about
half way up the seed tables and this is more to do with how they practice and
how seriously they take the game.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">"The Tour was designed to
be elitist, when changed to a 32 team knockout."<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I was under the impression that
it was to improve the 'top teams' abilities, improve their games standard and
give them a better shot at Worlds and on the continent generally.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Has this worked... I get the impression
it has.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Even though I am not a
part of it, I am glad for those who are, that they have this
option.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">"Shortage of non-Tour
events & more 'recreational' level."<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>It's true, with all the Official events going on there seems little
space for other more fun events, and they have to shuffle around each other in
hopes of a date that will produce enough teams to pay for
itself.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">"Are we losing or
alienating some potential outdoor players?"<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>It take a significant attitude from
the organisers of any team to not alienate some players (don't get me started
on this subject tho).<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>It happens,
and at various levels.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">"Students" last year,
approximately a third of our students didn't play either outdoors or during
the summer.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I have not asked why,
but thankfully most are back with us again this year.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>But a substantial number did not
pickup with any local team when they went home for summer, and this is an
unfortunate situation.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">"Beginners"<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Our second team has many beginners and
there is no option but to enter them into the Tour as the main source of game
and experience.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Now for the controversial
bit.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>In Canada, I have heard they
have a three tier league system in place like soccer here.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Obviously we don't have the numbers,
but would it be worth considering 2 smaller divisional events rather than 1
massive tour event.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>More smaller
venues would be available (more towns could host locally) and both divisions
could still play the same weekends.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>There would be a promotional/relegation concept to the top and bottom
teams in each division.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>New
teams/players would feel that 'deep end' feeling and top teams still get the
bonus of better/equivalent quality weekends.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>It might mean that teams like mine
might actually win an event occas! ionally.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Two penneth, thanks for
your time.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sam<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">(Controversially,
Nottingham Ultimate)<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P><BR><BR>
<P>Sam</P>
<P>Nottingham Ultimate</P>
<P>07866 336643</P>
<P> </P>
<P><BR>
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