From britdisc-owner@csv.warwick.ac.uk Thu Nov 1 17:05:28 2001 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by pansy.csv.warwick.ac.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fA1H1eE13917 for britdisc-outgoing; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 17:01:40 GMT Received: from daffodil.csv.warwick.ac.uk (root@daffodil [137.205.192.30]) by pansy.csv.warwick.ac.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fA1H1bX13894 for <britdisc-real@pansy.csv.warwick.ac.uk>; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 17:01:38 GMT Received: from mail.ravilious.net ([212.38.89.2]) by daffodil.csv.warwick.ac.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fA1H1bC25328 for <britdisc@csv.warwick.ac.uk>; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 17:01:37 GMT Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 17:04:27 +0000 Message-Id: <200111011704.AA13435660@mail.ravilious.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: "Ben Ravilious" <ben@ravilious.net> Reply-To: <ben@ravilious.net> X-Sender: <ben@mail.ravilious.net> To: <britdisc@csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Re: women X-Mailer: <IMail v6.05> Sender: owner-britdisc@warwick.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Tim what you have stated about the physical differences between men and women is undoubtedly true but it pre-supposes three things:- 1. That physical stature is the only thing that makes a player. 2. That everyone is playing at the top level where physical attributes *really* matter. 3. That everyone plays with the sole intention of winning. I think the concept of the 'Open' division is virtually meaningless at international level but below that the overlap between men and women is sufficiently small to make true Open division (i.e. unforced mixed play) viable. We need to identify the stage in a [female] player's developement when gender becomes an issue. If this stage is a result of laziness or sexism then we have to force the issue or at the very least educate those involved. If this stage is due to basic phyisical attributes then we need to offer Mens (OK 'Open'!), Womens and Mixed divisions and let people do their own thing. Yet again all this is academic if we can't even recruit and keep female players in the first place. Someone said something about schools - this is undoubtedly the place to start - get them before their adult prejudices kick-in. The recruitment potential from schools completely dwarfs that of universities. Kev Lowe & others have shown what can be done in schools but it needs much more manpower and organisation to happen nationwide. Go start a (mixed) school team today! I know there are loads of you teachers out there. You bring the kids and UK Ultimate will provide the support and the competitions. Ben ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: "Dowse, Timothy" <tim.dowse@ic.ac.uk> Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 15:16:45 -0000 >I don't think it is unreasonable to say that ON AVERAGE women are smaller >and slower and less strong then men. Obviously there are always exceptions >(small feeble men like me and massive tall power house >unbelievably-good-at-ultimate women). But I think it is perfectly >reasonable to say that there are more men at the top of open ultimate than >women because of average physical attributes, not to mention any of the >other factors that have been discussed. I know we live in an age of >equality, but I don't think you can take an set of guys and a set of girls >and say that the girls have an equal chance of getting to the top open teams >in the country as the guys. >Anyway, much of the gap between men and women lies in speed, not size. And >you can't tell me that women can run just as fast as men. Look at the >fastest women in the world. They could not compete with the fastest men. >And so the trend continues down to the us lesser athletes. >Be realistic >Tim Dowse > >-----Original Message----- >From: Jaimie Cross >To: britdisc@csv.warwick.ac.uk >Sent: 11/1/2001 2:45 PM > >To say that women can't compete because of their (lack of) physical >attributes is ridiculous. The top three teams in the country this year >all >had 'small' men playing for them (Aram, Kenny, Beege). All of whom I >wouldn't like to mark, cos they can change direction a lot quicker than >me. >Similarly I'm sure none of them would want to mark me if I was sprinting > >long. Ultimate is not played by 6 foot plus olympic sprinters, it is >played >by a wide variety of shapes and sizes. If anyone, man or woman, wants to > >make it to the top of the game, they can, and do. >If Rebecca wants to encourage female players, then instead of trying to >dump >the responsibility on student teams (who have a hard enough time as it >is of >getting respect with in the game as it is), why didn't she stand for the > >board of directors and push for it at a national level. If you want >something doing well, do it yourself. If you aren't playing enough, with >the >right mix, in the right place, organise a tournament yourelf, make up >the >rules and ENJOY. > >Jaimie > >_________________________________________________________________ >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp >