From britdisc-owner@csv.warwick.ac.uk Fri Feb 23 19:24:51 2001 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by pansy.csv.warwick.ac.uk (8.10.1/8.9.3) id f1NJLmO19616 for britdisc-outgoing; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 19:21:48 GMT Received: from snowdrop.csv.warwick.ac.uk (root@snowdrop [137.205.192.31]) by pansy.csv.warwick.ac.uk (8.10.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f1NJLkh19610 for <britdisc-real@pansy.csv.warwick.ac.uk>; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 19:21:46 GMT Received: from mail6.svr.pol.co.uk (mail6.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.193.212]) by snowdrop.csv.warwick.ac.uk (8.10.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f1NJLfY14887 for <britdisc@csv.warwick.ac.uk>; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 19:21:46 GMT Received: from modem-66.california.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.137.56.66] helo=ben) by mail6.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 14WNav-0001xf-00 for britdisc@csv.warwick.ac.uk; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 19:09:33 +0000 Message-ID: <00f701c09dce$e0e37240$4238893e@ben> From: "Ben Ravilious" <ben@ravilious.net> To: "BRITDISC" <britdisc@csv.warwick.ac.uk> References: <A5AACA33C168D2118B6800A024CB49D72CA35F@dmtnt.dmtdomain> Subject: Re: Students & the Tour (was Tour Dates etc.) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 19:26:54 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-britdisc@warwick.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Paul, This is my last output on the subject as I think most people have had enough. (happy to continue in private if you're going offer to help us though Paul!) Making the Tour smaller is fine but we then need to find something for the non-tour teams to do. As of this year the Tour is the main means of getting national rankings (of interest to every team whatever their standard) This means that, as I said, we need to provide a ladder of opportunity leading up to the Tour as the pinnacle. So even if the Tour is reduced to say 12 teams, we must have lower level 'national' events accessible to every team. Fee increase - sorry it wasn't on the agenda (hell no - it doesn't have to be!). The idea only came to me at the AGM as a suggestion and we didn't agree on it or take a vote on it at that time (we're not required to and we agreed NOT to prolong the meeting with AOB stuff). In fact the increase was purely an executive decision by the committee to try to drum up more interest from potential TD's. Not fantastically accountable but not beyond acceptable limits of our executive powers either. As to whether TD's get criticism or not - moot point - I think they get their fair share when things go wrong (ask Nancy Stebbing about the Towcester response). We felt we had to be seen to be standing up for her otherwise there was a danger that noone would ever want to run a tournament again. The more important issue is whether we get TD's *at all* and *that* is the purpose of the increased fees. Official BUF line on criticism is "If you don't like what others do, do it better yourself" This applies to us volunteer officers and to TD's (though TD's should expect some criticism if events are poor value for money) and is why your rather aggravated style of criticism annoys us. If you were to turn round and offer your assistance by either getting involved in the running of the BUF or bidding for a tournament then you'll find us far less 'defensive'. Can you not appreciate how infuriating and arrogant paragraphs like this.... "At the end of the day, you have to give things a try, see what works, see what doesn't, take the criticisms on the chin, and take them POSITIVELY, LEARN from them and DO IT BETTER NEXT TIME!" .... seem to someone who gives up their free time do run something? Why the hell do you wait until its gone wrong (in your opinion) before saying something. Why weren't you at the AGM to voice your concerns? Do you claim to know any better and would perform any better than the current BUF officers? What in the way of assistance are you offering to make this better? No really, what are YOU going to do actually help us? We'll listen if you've got ideas to put forward (like Dave MacKay's geo Tour.) And we DO listen to criticism when it is more rational than just shouting at us the top of your voice. What you fail to grasp is that any of us officers can walk away from all of this tomorrow and there isn't a thing you can do about it so you bloody well have to like it, lump it or get involved and change it yourself. Top tips for working with volunteers:- Every extra piece of effort they do is a bonus, If they do nothing you cannot complain, Thanks is always appreciated, Criticism needs to be constructive, and, most important of all, help is absolutely vital. Paul, If you want to earn the respect of everyone you really should now put your money where your mouth is and offer to help us. We need:- 1. Someone willing to research an suitable democratic set-up for an individual membership association. 2. Someone to print, seal and post the Tour mailshot 3. Someone to put together and maintain advice leaflets for such things as how to run a tournament, how to start a team, how to coach players, how to retain women players, how to advertise your club, how to warm up properly, etc, etc 4. Someone to support teams who are recruiting new players (especially at universities). They must be willing to mail-out promotional stuff of use in fresher's fairs. 5. Someone to audit injuries and see if we can reduce the number. 6. Someone to hold our stock of discs and mail them out to teams and players who buy them. 7 +101 other people we need. Can you help? Ben ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Meaney" <paul.meaney@qa.com> To: "'BRITDISC' (E-mail)" <britdisc@csv.warwick.ac.uk> Sent: 23 February 2001 14:13 Subject: RE: Students & the Tour (was Tour Dates etc.) Ben, chris had the right idea. Make the tour smaller. I believe I've mentioned this about four or five times. Ultimate is not a high enough profile sport in the UK to demand access to decent facilities of the size required by the tour. That way you only have to worry about one large event - Nationals. personally email you a > copy of the minutes of the AGM. > Ben, I'm not desperately bothered about the minutes, as that's closing tha gate after the horse has bolted.. but I am bothered about why this budget increase was not on the Agenda. That's all I have been asking. And also, why has it taken until now (the AGM was in september) to find out that the Tour fees are going up dramatically? This, surely, is a question of accountability? > The larger the tour gets and the more demanding the players > become for decent > facilities, the less TD's come forward. Its that simple. The so the simple answer is make the tour smaller. Or have we already mentioned this. ning > events. And you're making it worse by demonstrating exactly > what response they > can expect when it doesn't go perfectly. Ben - it's all about information. Britdisc has been around for years. I don't think it would be too much to ask of a TD to send an email out saying "guys, we've been let down by the groundstaff and there are no hot showers. We are really sorry and will look into offering you a refund. Just be aware opf this when you turn up". Is that so difficult. But no - the attitude is "good show! great effort! the facilities were shit, but well worth the £100 per team" people are quite happy to take the congratualtions for doing the event. dare to criticise something and you get stamped on. > > That said, you would indeed by right to expect better events > given the higher > fees. We're all looking forward to the improvements the extra > budget should > enable. > agreed. > Paul, I really don't mean this to be having a personal go at > you, but until you > show some signs of positive input you will be treated as > nothing but a sideline > heckler. and this bothers me because.... So is that an official line of the BUF? to utterly ignore criticism? I am sick and tired of the closing of ranks when a tournament goes drastically wrong. Instead of a hands-up 'yep, sorry, we goofed we'll do better next time' , the attitude of recent years has been a closed shop "tough, you should be grateful" or "if you can do better do it yourself" attitude. that's a crock of b.s. Anyways Ben what am I criticising? I am having a go at a tour entry fee of 150 quid MINIMUM. I am also criticising the BUF for (a) not mentioning this little nugget in the AGM agenda (b) not telling us until now and (c) not making the AGM minutes publicly available. for the sixth time Chris Huges has the right Idea (god I never thought I'd say that in public!) I have read his proposal, I think it's well thought out and he's covered all bases, from a top teams POV as well as a lower teams POV. He's right about the skills gap between top and bottom 12 and the issue of number of promotable teams remains tricky. He's come up with a number of ideas and scenarios to get around this issue. I have no idea which one will work best in practice. An option is to have no promotion/ relegation on a per tour basis, but on a per season. Nationals include all of division 1 and eg top four of division2. I disagree with his nationals strategy, but hells teeth, I don't think it's been done before, give it a go and see what people think! If it's crap and doesn't work - don't to it again. At least give the man the benefit of the doubt and give it a try. At the end of the day, you have to give things a try, see what works, see what doesn't, take the criticisms on the chin, and take them POSITIVELY, LEARN from them and DO IT BETTER NEXT TIME! The attitude of late has to be constantly defend, rather than learn from mistakes and strive to improve. I think that the defensiveness of your repsonse, Ben , has merely emphasized this point. The actual issues are being missed under a load of rhetoric. This is not squabbling, this is highlighting flaws in the existing structure , and a little humility on the part of either the BUF, the U8C or a TD to admit when things are not working wouldn't go amiss. That's what I'm getting at. > One final point, there is no requirement for every subject to > be discussed and > voted on at AGM. Its generally better to allow the officers > to make executive > decisions. You can then vote them out if you don't like it - what, decisions like upping Tour fees by 50%? what's the next one? BUF Taxes up by 200% Paul