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Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 15:27:23 -0800 (PST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Colin=20Wagstaff?= <colinwagstaff@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Tour Format
To: "HUGHES, Chris" <CHughes@chelt.ac.uk>, britdisc@csv.warwick.ac.uk,
"'ANDY COTGREAVE'" <acotgreave@rm.com>
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Chris, wrote:
The tour is elitist - yes, but do the elite teams
contribute to organise an event - No.
When was the last time UTI, Chevron, Catch, Doughboy
(who have enough Brits)
and 1st Touch organise any event.
I organised a tournament (one even more elitist than
the tour) last August the w/e before Worlds inviting
all of the UK open (all top 8) & Womens teams who were
competing at Worlds to a venue in London to play
against international opposition. None of teams other
than my own (UTI) and Bliss took up the offer, (Who
were the top placed UK teams in the Open and Womens
divisions at worlds, i wonder). I provided conditions
exactly the same as were played at worlds, admittedly
my fields were probably better marked and flatter than
those in St Andrews.
So i am not suprised people are more reluctant to
organise events. I made a considerable personal loss
organsing the event (Approx GBP 150, so the BUF did
not get their tournament tax). Since i presumed some
of the UK teams would have participated i did not
think their would be a problem breaking even. How
wrong can one be.
CW.
About to catch a few waves at Bondi.
--- "HUGHES, Chris" <CHughes@chelt.ac.uk> wrote:
> I appreciate that Andy is not having a gripe at the
> organisers, and I also
> appreciate that he feels a bit upset at the
> situation wrt the tour. However,
> Whilst I did my utmost to find venues for the tour,
> I was struggling, which
> is indicative of 2 things;
>
> 1. The number of people who are prepared to organise
> tournaments is falling
> drastically. This year I had 2 offers to run tours,
> other than myself and
> Wayne, along with 2 offers of 'we might be able to
> do something'. The tour
> is elitist - yes, but do the elite teams contribute
> to organise an event -
> No.
> When was the last time UTI, Chevron, Catch, Doughboy
> (who have enough Brits)
> and 1st Touch organise any event. Druids and BAF,
> organised tournaments
> -albeit non-tour events, and out of the top 8 teams,
> for whom the tour is
> supposed to be designed, RED are the only team to
> have organised a tour /
> National event. Granted there are individuals who
> play on these teams who
> organise events, but these are not team efforts.
> What about the teams
> outside the top 8 - where are they? So why aren't
> people prepared to host
> events - here come the arguments;
> Too much effort - crap, 2 people can run a good
> event - a team of 15
> shouldn't find it too much work. Besides, I have
> schedules, contact the
> sports physio people, can provide all the equipment.
> Can't find a venue - the majority of top teams are
> scattered over a large
> area nowadays, are you telling me that someone
> doesn't live near, drive
> past, be a member of a venue that could host an
> event.
> Can't be bothered - Valid point, consider this - if
> next year I get a
> similar response to organising event, then you will
> get the same response
> from me about organising the tour, then you will
> have to organise it all
> yourselves. Perhaps the BUF should me more focused
> on promoting the sport in
> those areas where people are willing to put the
> effort in to assist, and
> that is not the impression coming from the top
> teams.
>
> Why organise a tour (or any event for that matter)?
> Travel - organise an event on your doorstep, and you
> can be packed up and
> home by 6 rather than have another 300 miles to
> travel.
> Money - As DoC, I don't care how much money you
> make, as long as teams are
> given good value for their entry fee. Over the last
> two years I have made a
> net profit playing at tournaments (and that includes
> Worlds). Very, very,
> very few tournaments make a loss - those that do are
> usually down somebody
> forgetting to allow for costing of pitches or
> similar. Teams are crying out
> for events to play at. Offer them. Plan now.
>
> This then brings me to point 2;
> Tour Format / Organisation; all suggested
> alterations to the tour seem to
> make two assumptions; that either we are able to
> maintain the large size of
> the teams at tour events, or that we can reduce the
> size of the events, by
> splitting different leagues, or divisions - which
> will require more TD's -
> something we haven't got.
>
> It is quite apparent to me that the tour is unlikely
> to survive beyond this
> year. This is the outcome unless three things
> happen.
> Players and teams actually contribute towards
> providing opportunity for all
> to play the sport they love, and that players start
> becoming aware that they
> can't simply expect to be able to play for
> themselves. Lots of experienced
> players put a lot of effort to provide the
> opportunities to let you learn
> and develop your game - you are now the experienced
> players (not necessarily
> good, but experienced), it is time to return the
> favour and the effort -
> that means more than just griping on Britdisc about
> how it should be.
> People should realise that for the top tier events,
> it can no longer be a
> big, social gathering for all. This means teams have
> to accept that at some
> event they won't see top players, or their friends
> etc., as teams are there
> to play seriously, but also that any plans that
> involves teiring the system
> should be fair and equitable to all.
> That myself as DoC along with the u8c and BUF, can
> assist you in
> organisation of events, we can establish format and
> rules, we can monitor
> systems, but we cannot host events. We may endorse
> them, and make it a
> flagship tournament, but the BUF as an organisation
> has not held a
> tournament for a long time.
>
> Chris
> DoC
>
> (Anyone want to buy a soapbox - I'm done)
>
> > ----------
> > From: ANDY COTGREAVE[SMTP:acotgreave@rm.com]
> > Sent: 02 March 2000 08:26
> > To: britdisc@csv.warwick.ac.uk
> > Subject: RE: Tour Format
> >
> > > >A much bigger problem, however, is if a team
> misses the first tour.
> > >
> > > As I have previously mentioned, the Tour is
> elitest.
> > > If you want to be a part of that "elite", you
> don't miss any events!
> > >
> >
> > unless tour dates are changed at the last minute,
> moved to a bank holiday,
> > thus affecting all teams - maybe affecting the top
> teams the most? how so?
> > the top teams are the ones who commit the most to
> ultimate, what with team
> > practises, GB practises, and overseas tournaments.
> the top teams are the
> > ones who plan their "real" lives around the
> frisbee commitments. and when
> > dates are changed, that affects the top teams.
> >
> > i know that UTI and Chevron are affected badly by
> these date changes.
> >
> > this isn't a criticism of those who have made the
> effort to book the
> > events,
> > i am fully aware of the problems that there have
> been this year. i guess
> > we
> > just need to think about the way we book events,
> as well as they way we
> > restructure the tour.
> >
> > Andy
> > Chevron
> >
> >
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